Father of American Education: QAV America #78

Tony Kynaston: So um it’s basically it’s a Supplemental Lifetime annuity Or Term annuity uh So it allows teachers who have got the standard state pension to also set aside money outside of that into an investment plan So SLOT stands for Supplemental Lifetime Or Term and um it’s another product that companies like Horace Mann offer to teachers So that’s one wrinkle One of the financial wrinkles in the business The other wrinkle is um there’s a concept of a combined ratio in insurance businesses So um when you think about insurance companies the way you said it Cameron is correct They get premiums they pay claims they pay costs and hopefully there’s money left over Um the combined ratio is the claims and the costs divided by the premiums So if the combined ratio is below one hundred that means they’re making an underwriting profit And if it’s above one hundred they’re making an underwriting loss Now most insurance companies actually make an underwriting loss [00:18:00] and they make their money from the investment of the float which is the difference between the premiums coming in and the claims going out So um the float can be quite large and so even a small return on the float can make a big difference to the profitability of the insurance company Now Buffett has talked about this a lot with GEICO and with the other insurance businesses that Berkshire Hathaway owns Um they try and make an underwriting profit which is unusual in the insurance industry but um the key metric to look at is the combined ratio

Cameron: Right. Yeah. I think I did cover that briefly when I talked about the financials. Speaking of which, let me get into the numbers. Um, [00:19:00] so I’ve been using FinChat for all of these. The current share price when I did the analysis was $29.42. The PE ratio is, I got from FinChat, was 14.8 times, which I’ll come back to. Um, the EPS is $1.98. Um, and I’ll come back to what I think about that in a second. Um, the IV1 is $22.60. The IV2 is $19.75. So both of those are below the current share price. Now I want to flag, um, before you go, “Oh well, that means it doesn’t pass the checklist.” Because we’re applying the QAV checklist to insurance companies. And this is something that Tony and I have talked about in the past. Um, the IV1 and IV2 calculations don’t work well for insurance companies. And the reason for that is the book value of an insurance company is quite high because [00:20:00] they hold a lot of assets, they hold the float, they hold the investment portfolio. And so the book value is much higher than a typical company. And therefore the Graham number, which is used in the IV2 calculation, is quite high. But at the same time, the earnings can be quite low or variable. And so the IV1, which is based on earnings, can be quite low. Um, so we need to think about how to adjust for that when we’re applying the QAV checklist to insurance companies.

Tony Kynaston: Yeah look I think the the the key metrics I focus on with insurance companies are the combined ratio which we talked about and also the return on equity which is a measure of how well they’re using the shareholders funds And also the book value growth because um often the [00:21:00] book value of an insurance company will grow over time as they retain earnings and that’s a that’s a good indicator of the underlying value of the business

Cameron: Yeah okay so let me go through the rest of the numbers and then we can talk about all of that. Um the net debt to equity I’ve got as minus 11% so they’ve got net cash which is good. Um the interest cover I’ve got as 8.3 times. Um the current ratio I’ve got as not applicable for insurance companies. Um the ROE I’ve got as 7.4%. Um the gross margin I’ve got as not really applicable for insurance companies. Um the operating margin I’ve got as 6.5%. Um the net margin I’ve got as 4.2%. Um the Piotroski F-score I’ve got as 7 out of 9 which is good. Um the altman Z-score I’ve got as 0.9 which is [00:22:00] below the threshold of 1.8. But again that’s one of those metrics that doesn’t work well for financial companies and insurance companies because they hold a lot of debt in the form of their insurance liabilities. Um the QAV score I’ve got as 0.14 which is not great but it’s on the buy list. And the reason it’s on the buy list is primarily because the stock price is below our IV calculations even though those IV calculations are a bit wonky for insurance companies. Um and yeah so it’s it’s a marginal pass on the QAV checklist. But I think the underlying business is actually pretty good.

Tony Kynaston: Yeah I mean look the the the numbers aren’t flash but um I I think the key thing is what’s the trend What are the what’s the trend in the combined ratio What’s the trend in the [00:23:00] book value and what’s the trend in the ROE And if those things are all heading in the right direction then um it’s worth having a look at

Cameron: Yeah. Yeah. Um, so let me talk about the, um, the financial performance over the last few years, and then we can wrap up. Um, so revenue has been growing. Um, in 2020 it was $1.26 billion. In 2021 it was $1.33 billion. In 2022 it was $1.38 billion. In 2023 it was $1.44 billion. And the most recent trailing twelve months I’ve got is $1.49 billion. So steady growth in revenue. Um, net income has been a bit more variable. In 2020 it was $106 million. In 2021 it was $130 million. In 2022 it dropped to $22 million. In 2023 it was $55 million. And the trailing twelve months I’ve got is $71 million. So [00:24:00] it’s recovering but it’s not back to where it was in 2021. Um and the the reason for the drop in 2022 was largely investment losses as interest rates rose and their bond portfolio took a hit. Um so that’s a that’s a thing to be aware of with insurance companies. They hold a lot of bonds and when interest rates rise the value of those bonds falls. And that hit them in 2022. Um the EPS I mentioned was $1.98. Um and the dividend yield is about 5.5% at the current share price which is pretty attractive. Um they’ve been paying dividends consistently. Um the payout ratio is quite high, it’s about 60%, but that’s not unusual for insurance companies.

Tony Kynaston: Yeah look I mean the dividend yield is attractive and um you know [00:25:00] they’ve got a long history of paying dividends and growing them so um that’s a positive. The the thing that concerns me a little bit is the ROE of 7.4%. I’d like to see that higher. Um and the net income variability is a concern. But um look it’s it’s a business that’s been around since 1945. It’s got a clear niche. It’s got a um a good customer base and loyal customer base. Um so yeah look I think it’s worth watching.

Cameron: Yeah I think the the thesis is that it’s a steady boring business in a niche that’s not going to disappear anytime soon. Teachers are always going to need insurance and retirement planning. Um and it’s a business that’s been around for nearly 80 years. It’s not going anywhere. Um and at a PE of 14.8 times it’s not expensive. Um so yeah I think it’s a reasonable addition to the portfolio. We’ll see how it goes. Um [00:26:00] that’s Horace Mann Educators Corporation, HMN on the NYSE. Um, Tony, let’s talk about what else is going on in the world. Um, what are you watching at the moment?

Tony Kynaston: Well um yeah let’s talk about the macro environment because it’s been a big week. Um you know we’ve had the the election result um which as you said the market has actually reacted pretty well to. Um the S&P 500 had a big jump on the day after the election. Um and the market seems to be pricing in um you know tax cuts and deregulation under a second Trump term um as a positive for corporate earnings. Um at the same time there are concerns about tariffs and what that might mean for inflation. Um and um you know the Federal Reserve met this week and um Jerome Powell kept rates on hold which was widely expected. Um and he was pretty [00:27:00] non-committal about the future path of interest rates which is also not surprising given the uncertainty around um you know what a second Trump term means for inflation. Um so yeah it’s it’s a complex macro environment at the moment.

Cameron: Yeah. Yeah. And, um, you know, I think the, the tariff thing is the big wildcard, isn’t it? Because if, if Trump does implement the tariffs that he talked about during the campaign, um, 10 to 20% across the board on all imports, 60% on Chinese imports, that’s going to be inflationary. Um, and that’s going to put the Federal Reserve in a difficult position because they’re trying to bring inflation down and then you’ve got fiscal policy going in the other direction. Um, so yeah, that’s the big wildcard. And I think that’s why Jerome Powell was non-committal because he doesn’t know what’s going to happen with tariffs either.

Tony Kynaston: Yeah [00:28:00] exactly. And look I think there’s also the question of whether um you know Trump will follow through on all of those campaign promises or whether he’ll dial some of them back once he’s actually in office. Um you know there’s a there’s a long history of politicians saying things in campaigns and then moderating their positions once they’re actually governing. Um so we’ll see. But um yeah look I think the the market is in um wait and see mode at the moment and um you know we’ll get more clarity over the coming months as Trump starts to actually announce his cabinet and his policies.

Cameron: Yeah. And speaking of which, he has been announcing his cabinet. Um, and um, you know, it’s been a mix of um some establishment figures and some quite, um, controversial picks. Um, [00:29:00] we mentioned, you know, the replacement for Susie Wiles as chief of staff. Um, and there are other picks that are raising eyebrows. Um, but look, I think we’ll see how it all plays out. Um, it’s going to be an interesting four years. Um, Tony, anything else you want to cover before we wrap up?

Tony Kynaston: No I think that’s um that’s pretty good. Um you know I think the the key message is um don’t panic um stick to the process um the QAV checklist will keep you out of trouble and um you know we’ve seen that over the last few weeks where the portfolio has recovered and started to pull away from the index again. Um so yeah just trust the process.

Cameron: Yeah. Good advice. Um, all right, that is it for QAV America episode 78. Um, thank you as always, Tony. Um, we will be back next week. Um, in the meantime, um, have a good [00:30:00] week everyone and, um, keep calm and QAV on.

Tony Kynaston: Bye for now.

Cameron: Bye.

Tony Kynaston: schools have slots um allow Basically it’s a it’s a system which allows people who are providing um fund uh so from the salary s salary system so it’s a salary sacrifice system There’s a number of slots in the school uh which can be allocated to companies to have automatic deductions made into 401 uh funds for example So it becomes really important to get access to one of those slots because what comes with the slot is the ability to go and sit in the school and market your insurance and other products as well as the pension fund products to teachers in their lunch rooms for example So it’s really important that you pick up one of the one of the slots and then you can market into schools directly to the teachers on the school premises [00:18:00] so this company doesn’t have to pay in the way of marketing mass marketing because they’ve they’ve got access to a lot of these slots so the teacher fills out a form um decides to have their deduction paid to uh Horace Mann and then it’s set up on the system and they can have access to other other um funds as well because there are there are more than one swat uh slots uh at the at the schools But they are limited so not infinite Most schools will have a like a panel of slots um and they allocate those slots out to various companies what The great benefit of those slots apart from the fact that you can get into the schools to market to the teachers and help them fill out their forms and talk to them about retirement planning But um teachers you know basically like most people I guess set and forget So they sign up for a fund and then they go on with their with their uh life and they don’t tend to change them very [00:19:00] much The other thing which is interesting about another wrinkle in this is that um oftentimes the unions play a part in a-allocation of uh of slots as well So major f-financial providers I I did a bit of research because I thought well if these slots are so valuable to insurance companies and to retirement fund companies like Vanguard and and and their big companies was there any kickback scandals Um because you know if you’re a school principal on a basic wage and you’ve got these valuable slots to allocate which are gonna take people’s salaries and you’ll you’ll get a fee of that and it’s often around one point three percent um for the next forty years it’s it’s a valuable thing to to gain So it appears that there hasn’t been any scandals regarding the principals but there has been some critique of the way the unions get involved So major financial providers have paid millions of dollars in [00:20:00] endorsement fees or sponsorship revenues state and national teacher unions such as the NEA or NYSUT in exchange the union officially endorses that specific provider as the preferred choice for its hundreds of thousands of members of educators So pressure on the school then to provide that preferred choice as a slot That’s been challenged a couple of times um in in court but there is a loophole in US legislation which uh means that uh the kind of rules that apply in non-teaching environments um like if you’re going to get financial advice on for your retirement um they don’t apply in the schooling system So the school the union uh or the funds do not necessarily have the same sort of uh requirements uh to provide the best uh option for a teacher when they sign up to these uh these [00:21:00] funds I f I found that to be interesting There has been a case against this company in the past um in the Delaware state in twenty twenty Um so not a kickback but um Horace Mann was w-was uh well settled on a a regulatory probe and paid a fine uh because the the state regulators concluded Horace Mann engaged in deceptive practices by providing inadequate and confusing info to teachers during a district-wide administrative vendor shift to capture their retirement balances So th-there’s a lot going on um in terms of unions in terms of states in terms of um regulators in terms of schools and in terms of getting access to teachers that that is behind this industry as well what the up part of the one of the upshots of that is that some teachers proactively bypass like Horace Mann to avoid paying the [00:22:00] 1.28 admin rep fees that get charged on these retirement products and they run their own retirement plans a bit like Australians do with SMSFs Um Alternatively uh some some companies like Vanguard and Fidelity who run low-cost ETFs will also provide lower cost um index funds for teachers to invest their 401s in and they also can obtain slots and uh and go into schools and talk about that as well then the last wrinkle is that there’s a thing called the Roth IRA IRA IRA route which is um kind of outside the system So of going through the sy the school salary sacrifice system you can do it yourself under this uh statute which was pioneered by Senator Roth which uh uh allowed um uh people to directly um pay into funds outside of the system the school system but it did have a couple of catches and [00:23:00] and wrinkles in that as well Uh and there’s different treatments for people who do it that way so it There’s a lot of a lot of information which needs to get into the hands of teachers and there’s a campaign called the 403b Wise Grassroots Movement and it it’s it’s designed to try and teachers with fee calculators uh to become wiser about what their pensions will look like if they’re gonna pay a rep fee versus an ETF fee versus doing it themselves versus being a part of um a system which maximizes salary sacrifice versus not doing that So um yeah there’s a lot of information which needs to get into the hands of the teachers the bottom of end of the day teachers are pretty much exhausted with grading with um lesson planning with teaching all day in school running sports or activities in the evenings and after schools and [00:24:00] they generally you know tick the form and sign the box and and get into a 401 plan one of these slots and then continue with that uh for the long term So that’s become a fairly profitable part of the Horace Mann business I’m not saying they’re doing anything wrong but it gives them the leg up of being able to go into schools and talk in lunchrooms with teachers about insurance as well And again it’s a good product for teachers because it’s um teachers uh pay less car insurance premiums because they have less accidents Horace Mann flow in a couple of uh perks to teachers So if your is stolen from your car while you’re at school or it’s vandalized there’s no um you get some benefits There’s no uh uh change to your premiums going forward There’s no excess applied in that kind of case So it’s a bit of a symbiotic relationship but it it does it does come with a few differences to how insurance would normally work and certainly different to how it works in Australia

Cameron: Wow. Well, I assumed [00:25:00] the Roth IRA is when you gave all your money to David Lee Roth and

Tony Kynaston: You got bootleg tapes back

Cameron: Yeah. He promised not to sing in public anymore if you give him all your money.

Tony Kynaston: You got a Hanzai Hanzai sword

Cameron: Yeah,

or

Tony Kynaston: Yeah

Cameron: or it goes to Hyman Roth. Uh, he’s running something down in Cuba, I believe. Well, thank you for that. I did not, uh, get all of that in my notes, so there you go. Yet again, you add value to these American Pulled Pork’s

Tony Kynaston: I just found that really interesting because it’s it like the principles are there similar to what we do in Australia It’s like do you want to invest in a fund Do you wanna pay wrap fees on your accounts Do you want to uh invest in an index ETF and pay a low fee or do you wanna do it yourself And it s it seems to be the same the US but with all these other wrinkles about retirement planning and different tax um rules and then whether you get a defined benefit pension [00:26:00] scheme at the end or not whether you sacrifice some Social Security to the credits from past employers or not It it’s very complex

Cameron: Yeah Well, let’s get into their, uh, into their numbers then, Tony. Um, you know, if you look over the last five or six years in Stock Doctor, their total revenue has been going up fairly consistently. It was about one point three billion in twenty twenty. It’s up to about one point seven billion in twenty twenty-five.

The, uh, e-estimate for twenty twenty-six is, uh, one point seven six seven billion. Says there’s a CAGR of about five point three eight percent over the period. Operating profit has gone from a hundred and seventy-five million in twenty twenty to two hundred and forty in twenty twenty-five. Did have a dip though in twenty twenty-two, twenty twenty-three that they had to build back from.[00:27:00]

Now, I looked into that a little bit. Um, in twenty twenty-three they lost money on their car and home insurance policies. Claims and running costs took a dollar thirteen for every dollar of premiums that they earned. Apparently, this was down to quite a lot of storms and weather damage. I think back when we did Slide, the Florida insurer, a few episodes ago, we talked about Hurricane Helene that hit them.

It also hit Horace Mann in twenty twenty-four, but there were different storms in twenty twenty-three. There was like a lot of smaller storms, I think, and you get storm after storm. It all adds up, and it was very expensive for them. But they still came out with a profit in those years because the life and supplemental insurance parts of their business, uh, covered the losses that they were making on the car and home insurance.

So, uh, they still reported [00:28:00] sixty-three point eight or sixty-nine million, depending on what you’re looking at, operating profit or net profit, uh, over those years. They still managed to eke out some profit. But then they put their prices up and got more selective about what they would insure. Takes time for that to flow through to the bottom line.

People can renew or they can walk away. Uh, they’ve also been bringing their costs down as well. Twenty twenty-four claims and costs took ninety-eight cents of each premium dollar. In twenty twenty-five it was down to ninety cents, helped by a quieter year in terms of big storms. And for the September twenty twenty-six quarter it was eighty-four cents, down from about eighty-eight cents in the last quarter. So lower claim costs, um, also, you know, lowering other costs across the business is a good sign. They’re keeping [00:29:00] more money out of every dollar. But, you know, it’s one of these businesses, I think, that it depends on what kind of a storm season they have, how much it’s gonna affect that side of things.

There’s not a lot they can do on- About that.

Tony Kynaston: Yeah

Cameron: pushing up their premiums and cutting their costs as much as possible

Tony Kynaston: Just on that last point sorry to interrupt but the management did talk about checking looking at their normalized what they call normalized earnings So

Cameron: Yeah

Tony Kynaston: um which wasn’t as uh exciting as their you know big big boost in profit this year

Cameron: Yeah

Tony Kynaston: yeah

Cameron: But they are making money. I mean, my essential questions when I go into this is, are they making money? Are they heading in the right direction? And can we get them cheaply? So in the September quarter, they made about fifty-nine million in, uh, profit, um, about the same as the year earlier. So not growing, but they’re making money.

As I said, they raised prices, but that’s still– some of that has still got to flow through to the bottom line. Um, big question is how much [00:30:00] profit they can repeat. Management expects about six dollars a share in adjusted profit for twenty twenty-six. And if they do get hit by storms and costs, that could come down to four dollars thirty-five, management says

Tony Kynaston: Can I just check something different results here So what I saw for the last quarter was a the record a record profit quarter ever for Horace Mann

Cameron: Okay

Tony Kynaston: increase year on year Um so they reported adjusted core earnings of two dollars and six and that was against the Wall Street consensus estimate of a dollar eleven per share for the quarter So it was a big improvement in their profitability

Cameron: That was for the September quarter?

Tony Kynaston: Uh I guess so I don’t have the Yeah I don’t have the number here sorry

Cameron: Yeah, I don’t have it to compare with either. It’s probably in my deeper notes, but I’m not gonna go digging through those.

Tony Kynaston: [00:31:00] Che

Cameron: Anyway, bottom line is they’re making money. They seem to be going in the right direction. Um, they’ve also been doing some acquisitions. Um, in October, they paid about a hundred and seventy million in cash to Medical Mutual of Ohio, which is another insurance company for a business called Employee Services.

It provides counseling and other staff support, so this is something else that they can offer alongside cover to school districts. Um, and there’s two other deals with Medical Mutual that still need approval from regulators. One is to buy a company called Reserve National, which is an Oklahoma City insurer that’s been around since nineteen fifty-six.

Um, basically, if you get diagnosed with cancer, they pay you a lump sum. Um, it’s kinda cover that Horace Mann already has, but they’d be picking up more customers paying existing premiums and a network [00:32:00] of agents to sell more policies, so they’re just gonna try and absorb that Uh, yeah. So they’re doing a few acquisitions like that.

That’s basically all I’ve got to tell you from that front. Um, now the share price has had a big spike recently. Uh, they put out their results after the market closed on the 3rd of November, and the shares bounced 12% the next day. So market really liked that. Even after that jump, um, it turned up on our buy list.

Whole company is priced about four times the cash it generated from running the business over the last years. The Pr/OpCaf is about four, so, um, yeah. It’s, uh, pretty cheap from a QAV perspective and is, uh, growing, is profitable, and that’s pretty much all I’ve got

Tony Kynaston: I had one more thing to talk about which was um its float [00:33:00] So you know it’s float’s always been of interest to me because that’s how Berkshire Hathaway got uh so big without borrowing using the insurance float

Cameron: Yep

Tony Kynaston: wondered you know how uh why other insurance companies hadn’t grown as big and largely it’s because Berkshire Hathaway is the holding company for insurance businesses so there’s different rules about how what they can invest Whereas like this is Ho-Horace Mann is an insurance company so they’re quite there are regulations around what it can invest in But one of the things it was allowed to invest in was um uh W uh a a fund that was called Alternative Strategies Fund which they manage themselves So um it was holding assets like private credit fixed income um other alternative strategies But that returned twenty percent um annualized return last year as of as of quarter three twenty-six So that helped to boost their profits as well cause [00:34:00] obviously if they take their their float and invest it wisely they’re gonna have surplus um funds that they won’t need to pay out actuarially assessed claims and so they can book that as profit So that was one of the reasons why it was a good for them But I dug down into that because that seemed like a bit of a wrinkle to myself because I’ve always thought insurance companies would have to have money held in like triple B plus rated assets which is kind of the standard A triple B or A plus is is the standard Um but apparently uh there is some rules in uh uh US law around what insurance companies can do I guess they’re summarized in in what’s called the prudent person rule So it allows insurance companies to invest in alternative asset classes as long as the position does not threaten the company’s overall solvency uh overall solvency and is managed with professional care regulators allow a defined percentage of insurance capital to be classified as admitted [00:35:00] assets in riskier buckets like private equity or real estate partnerships provided the majority of the balance sheet remains in triple B or A plus So I I wasn’t aware of that but that’s what um that’s what this company has done and they’ve done it successfully So it’s like the core of the of the float is still in uh A plus weighted average credit rating products but uh some of it is in alternative strategies strategies which have which have returned um above market returns What the regulator does do in these cases is it um It doesn’t say you can’t invest in these things It does put um guidelines around how much you can invest in alternative strategies But it it what it does is it applies a risk-based capital charge based on how much you put into into triple B uh and above reserves versus the uh more aggressive type uh investments Um and [00:36:00] s what that means is that uh you take a you take a hit to profit if if you’re putting more into alternative assets Um but because because Horace Mann had uh a combined ratio of eighty-four percent as you said before this this year were able to absorb some of those extra charges on their capital for investing in the risk-based uh approach uh put more towards their their private um credit type funds and got great returns which uh easily compensated for the penalties that they had to endure So I th I just thought that was a interesting wrinkle in the way that insurance companies worked and it it did help uh uh this company this time

Cameron: How much of it did they put into Binance, Tony? That’s what we wanna know

Tony Kynaston: 1.5 billion No I don’t know

Cameron: Yeah, that is interesting. So they have a little bit on the side where they can make extra profits

Tony Kynaston: Yep they have a core and then they have the the cream Core

Cameron: So

I [00:37:00] believe in investing circles we call that the Jensen Huang. Um, just a little bit on the, little bit on the side. Yeah Well, uh, let me wrap up by going through the numbers. So, um, their quality rank on Stockopedia is a sixty-one, just above our cutoff of sixty, so they got a score for that. Their stock rank is ninety-four, above our cutoff of ninety, so they got a score for that. Their F score is a six, above our four point five cutoff, so they got a score for that.

Their price when I did the analysis is, was at fifty-three dollars twenty-five. Our IV1 was twenty-seven dollars seventy, so their price was not below that. Um, but their IV2 was fifty-three dollars eighty, and the price was fifty-three dollars twenty-five, so I could score them for the price being below our IV number two.

The price was, uh, not below book, uh, was not below book plus [00:38:00] thirty. Did have a three-point uptrend, obviously. Wasn’t a new three-point uptrend, though, so I couldn’t score them for that. Uh, growth over PE was not above one point five. Um, their book value growth was positive, ten point five two percent year over year for the last three years.

Um, PE was not below the yield. The yield was not above the bank rate. The yield was about two point six seven percent for reference. The forecast intrinsic value was not twice the price. As I said, it was only about fifty cents above the, uh, current price. But the Pr/OpCaf was about three point eight, just below four, so I could score them for that.

So all in all, they ended up with a QAV quality score of sixty-six point six seven percent and a QAV score [00:39:00] of, um. I don’t know. Where’s the QAV score on my list here? Come on. QAV score. Got so many scores showing up here. Ah, zero point one seven. A QAV score of zero point one seven. So it wasn’t at the top of our list this week, but, um, it was in the top ten, I think.

Tony Kynaston: okay

Cameron: So there you go. Again, uh, one of these sort of relatively boring but interesting little undervalued businesses that tend to pop up in the US

Tony Kynaston: And they’re coming back into favor as the as the data centers face hurdles and as Jensen Huang creates hurdles and all sorts of things are happening in the uh more edgier part of the market

Cameron: Yeah, I guess, uh, some people are looking to redistribute their portfolios into things that are a little bit more sensible, but, um, that’s what we do day in and day [00:40:00] out. Um, so we’ll see how they go. Um, I did, uh, put them out as a light option for people this week. So, uh, yeah, we’ll track it and see how it goes.

That’s HMN, Horace Mann

Tony Kynaston: Great company I found that really interesting to research that industry research that niche Uh yeah The similarities to Geico and how it started I f I found fascinating I I just found it really interesting to see those kind of universal issues about whether you pay someone to manage your retirement funds for you or whether you do it yourself and what are the tax issues and how does what’s the impact of 1 over a lifetime of of investing all those kinds of things I just found fascinating

Cameron: You got the o-

Tony Kynaston: I

Cameron: No. Well, I was just– I was laughing because, you know, when I was working with ChatGPT on the first version of my notes, it had all the stuff and I was like, “Yeah, this is boring bullshit. Get that. Get rid of that. Get rid of that. Get rid of [00:41:00] that. Don’t care about this. Don’t care about that.” I just, I, I strip it back to the bare b-basics.

Tell me how they make money. Are they making money? Are there any big problems? What do I need to know? Um, and you’re like, “No, the details are fabulous. I wanna get into the detail.” Yeah

Tony Kynaston: same sort of thing but then I go I don’t understand that Tell me more about that

Cameron: Yeah, right

Tony Kynaston: what’s a Roth rule Tell me about that

Cameron: Yeah

Tony Kynaston: went down the rabbit hole into you know sa sacrificing out salary outside the

Cameron: Yeah.

Tony Kynaston: Yeah

Cameron: I, I had to prepare for a podcast about Jack Kennedy and Nikita Khrushchev, uh, having a debate in Vienna. That was wa-way more interesting to me than Roth IRA rules. And if David Lee Roth had been involved, I would’ve spent more time on it. All right.

Tony Kynaston: Okay

Cameron: That’s QAV America for this week.

Happy hunting, everyone

Tony Kynaston: Thanks Cam

Cameron: I was getting messages all along the way from Descript saying your